/Rant

[Marcus Aurilius]

Hi it's me again, and thanks for the previous issues I confided with you, they're both fine now.    However my cities are getting bigger and more problems are arising as I can't do 1061 things at once (I wish I could.   .   .   )

 :035:

The following things are making me go crazy:

1.    Grammaticus' and Baths and Temples.    My population is like 11,000 or something, and obviously everyone needs something but it gets ridiculous.    I have 3 of these grammaticus' placed and still the children do not go.    Half the time 2 of them are empty.    Can they not find them? :032: Baths are the same, they simply seem to stop working.    Now everywhere Domus' and Insulae are down-grading because the people living there seem incapable of visiting a working bath or grammaticus  :031:.    It's the same with temples, they lose their effect and as soon as I build a new one, the entire population tries to use it.   

2.    Work-time/Free-time.    Is it just me or half the time does a worker work right into his free-time without stopping, because he started a job like 1 second before the change-over.    It's a bit silly, and it happens vice-versa as well.    A worker is about to start and 1 second before he goes to a temple across town or something and ends up with like 5 seconds of work-time.    Or he could just use the temple closest to his home which apparently does not work anymore  :014:.   

3.    Consumption.    Lol, fruit farms, what a pain in the [****]  :012:.    One basket of fruit is placed and it's like watching seagulls, 100 of them.    This is before the 3 fruit-shops can even set foot out of their store.    Although, I solved this by ditching the fruit farms and buying the fruit from some city.    At one point I was buying 80 things of fruit, and it was all gone  :sweat: (this is with disabled rations) in less then a minute.    Now I've fixed that though, my problem is olives.    I have 2 olive farms and 5 pressers, the demand for olive oil is huge  :tired:.    Never is there more then 1 tank sitting on the table, and never does it last for more then a minute.    I desperately to need to up the olive production, but how? More farms just means more houses, more vendors and blah blah  :035:.    I need an effective way.   

Basically, THANK-YOU FOR LISTENING TO MY RANT AND IF YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS PLEASE POST THEM.   



  

[Strix]

Difficult to say

Firstly (have to ask, sorry) did you patch the game?   There were issues with children not going to school, but I think these were mostly resolved in the patch.
Research books to increase scholl capacity, same goes for the other researches that speed up temples and baths, in fact do all the researches eventually, but some are must haves

Next, did you extend the housing range? If so, you may be having the problem that Tom Nobles described in the other thread. Much better to keep the radius as standard, because you are forcing the homes to only go a smaller distance.

Next, did you change free time too much. Giving workers a lot of free time means they have more free time to visit, yes, but the place they want to visit may not be working because the worker is on free time (known as sod's law in the UK)


The consumption issue looks to me like you have fruit, and maybe olives being used as rations. (However you say not.)
Nevertheless, it was difficult for a lot of people to understand because it was not explained properly in the instructions, and the granary controls frequently don't work properly either.
Make sure that on the front panel of the granary, only meat has a green tick, and that all the other items have the red stop sign. If you can't change them, save the game quit to desktop and go back into the game and this will probably free the controls again.

If fruit is disappearing from the farm, then they are in range of the homes, - bad idea (It's those long ranges again). For some farms, a single item in a farm is converted to a lot more in a granary, not sure if this is true of fruit though (maybe Tom knows). But fruit is only needed for insulae to upgrade, which they shouldn't normally get from a farm. but from a granary or fruit stand. A fruit stand, like a date stand, is a "granary extension" unlike a butcher's shop which is a "meat factory"
In my cities I usually have loads of fruit to spare.

Olives are tricky. There is no research that improves Oil production or reduces Oil consumption and I find that Oil is used twice as quickly as all the other items. I would have said that 2 farms was good for a decent sized city as long as you don't try to evolve all your shacks.
But you should have more pressers, maybe  2 farms + 10 presses, but make sure you research agriculture, plough and irrigation. Tom may have a better ratio.


In general, I find that Tom's assesssment is about right

Set rations to -4
Work time to standard
Keep happiness up by building 2 wonders, doing the happiness researches, housing people (small huts is OK), and maybe by paying more.

Obviously you can vary these a bit depending on the circumstances and the overall population.


PS did you inadvertently change a setting in a CSV file that increases consumption. Not sure if this is even possible because I never mod things anyway.
(However Tom's Pantheon Mod is tempting)

[Marcus Aurilius]

Thanks for the reply Strix. 

Ah yes, I have patched the game, and I have researched everything there is in this particular map.   This is a free map I'm talking about so it's generally easy.   I have no issue with money.   

My problem may very well lie in the fact I modded the radius, in saying that though I don't understand how you would play the game otherwise, for instance, domus' are so big; wouldn't you need like one of everything for like 6 houses?

I often change free time and work time according to what I think will help the city the most, which probably doesn't do anything anyway.   I wish I could configure it so every child was on work time while a teacher was on work time, and every worker was on free time while a priest was on work time and etc.   

Or my problem may lie in the fact I'm trying to give everyone houses, should I not be doing that? It's difficult trying to figure out who should be upgrading to where, and etc.   Let's say you have a dude in a shop, and you upgrade him to across the city where there's space.   He now has to travel the length of the city to work.   That is a bad idea, isn't it.   Then as he upgrades to domus you put him yet further away.   I can see the problem here, and I'm not sure why I keep doing it.   

Yes the granaries, I have canceled the rationing of everything but meat.   But if it wasn't for me buying the stuff then it would be the same fate as olives.   However, what you said about the farms being in the radius, that makes sense.   On the same topic, regarding the 'farm extension/factory' idea (which is also logical), what would you say is better?
1.   Fruit farm to granary then transported to granary in middle of city   or
2.   Fruit farm directly to fruit shop
But then the issue is, if I put both granary and fruit shop in city, what's the point in both?

Olive Oil is an issue, more Pressers I think.   

I don't think I changed Consumption, but while I'm here I should tell you I made the foolish mistake of not noting what the original values are for the housing radius', could someone tell me what they are? I think they're like 20 or something.   

I will try that assessment shortly. 

Contemplating getting rid of the green arrows somehow so I'm not always feeling obliged to upgrade some dude's house.   

Also, what happens to a family when an insulae becomes abandoned (as in, there's no one there).  Does the man (worker) live at his place of work and does the rest of the family disappear?

[Strix]

I believe original ranges are 20 for shacks, 30 insulae, 50 domus & villa, 60 Palace.

Yes, workers live at their place of work. You are given this clue by the fact that you get people in the city by placing workplaces, unlike most other games where you have to place homes to get people.

I would say that whether you house all people in the city is up to you, but the more you have housed, the happier they are. If you house as many as you can I certainly wouldn't evolve some of them of them beyond piped water and meat but again that is up to you and depends on the other scenario requirements. In a Freeplay game it is probably easier to do this and in fact may be your personal goal, but in something like Britannia where space is limited and you have to have lots of arbitrary buildings then I wouldn't bother.

Pulls a figure out of the air... Maybe have 50% housed, up to you though.  I don't think I'd bother to house woodworkers or stone workers or ship builders because they are sort of temporary anyway and may need moving to new locations. House the lot if you can, just don't evolve too many too far.

I use donkey carts a lot because there is no real range limitation. It makes sure that a farm is definitely out of range and up to a point you can limit the amount of something in a particular granary or warehouse by carting excess to another granary, so it reduces the danger of filling up a granary with a single good.
A fruit farm send its fruit to a granary if there is one. A fruit stand will take some fruit (8 I think) from either granary or farm and put them on the counter. If none is removed then the worker does nothing else, so it is like a market stall. A butcher or Olive press or baker take raw material, process it into goods and put them into granary or warehouse, so they are factories. If there is no warehouse or granary, then they stop work until some is removed, so it is wasteful of work. (however there is the plus side that they do not have to walk to the warehouse to put stuff away, so have more free time)


About workers. I try to give the workers I intend to upgrade jobs where they do not have to walk to get goods or put goods in warehouses. So something like hospital. This will give you 6 homes that you plan to upgrade all the way. I think they change their jobs at some relocation stages and you may want to use the change jobs arrow (click on the worker)

You can control the initial job a particular worker has when you place a workplace. Place a shack right near it so that the worker at the workplace lives in that shack, then relocate it to where you want it, in the workers village if say an olive farmer, or in the yuppie starter homes if say a hospital worker.

It's a bit of a pain, but CCR is pretty unique in homes, workers and work places. You have to spend a long time trying things out rather than actually rushing scenarios. Fortunately for me I learned to like doing this, but I understand many people don't.

Actually I saw just now from Tom's CSV post in the other thread there are consumption times that should give theoretical shops, however I've always found I need more Oil presses than other shops.

If an insula is abandoned, you will have to evolve someone else to take his place. Good question, I presume he still lives at his place of work and I'd guess he loses his family but I don't know for sure, Tom might know.
I don't have CCR ready at the moment cos I'm doing something else but I'll be back on it in 2-3 days.

[tomnobles]

I often change free time and work time according to what I think will help the city the most, which probably doesn't do anything anyway.

Works as advertised. However, pros cancel cons and etc. That is, to increase free time means less work time and thus less production. This works well if you have extra shops with full shelfs.

Or my problem may lie in the fact I'm trying to give everyone houses, should I not be doing that?

This is my normal play style and it is hard for me to build and not give a house.
You get max. happiness with 50% housed. Early in the game, housing is income.

Also, what happens to a family when an insulae becomes abandoned (as in, there's no one there).  Does the man (worker) live at his place of work and does the rest of the family disappear?

This happens when you delete a work place. There is another event that will cause the worker to leave but the wife and kid will stay. I usually delete these.

Did you use CRAM or a spreadsheet program to modify the housing radius? If you used CRAM, you should have a backup that can be restored. I use MS Works, screen shot;


Also, you can't have too many housed citizens. City of 300,000 housed

[tomnobles]

Almost forgot this one.

Grammaticus' and Baths and Temples

Grammaticus - Until you research Books (8 students), the Grammaticus only holds 4 students. Distance is absolutely no problem. I've even made em' ride two ferry boats and had no problem.

Rule of thumb could be one Grammaticus per 16 insulae (after researching Books).

Baths and temples also have a limit that can be increased with research. Hypocaust for baths and Temples for temples.

It is possible to overpopulate a single temple or bath even after research. Large temples can handle more people or two small will probably work.

Bath and temples have to be within house radius also.

[Marcus Aurilius]

Ok, I have read all this and I'm thinking I need to have different areas, like slums and upper-class etc.  Do you think it would be a good idea to make a slum in which all they do is produce goods, that can then be transferred elsewhere? By produce I mean just have an area that churns out everything needed.  Then have an upper class district with people that have 'rich' jobs such as owning baths, priests, doctors etc.  Then they would be supplied by all the goods made by the slum. 

Plus, increasing the house range may seem like a good idea but it was probably a standard size for a reason. . .  I think I shall change it back.

I'm thinking place farms where the goods can be directly taken completely out of the way from houses, and place goat farms and such close to the city. 

More micro-management would help as well. 

[tomnobles]

There are those who like to make different areas (slums, middle class & Upper class). That is play preference. I use a layout that can be used for any housing up to large insulae. A few times I've even spotted a few domus' around the layout.

Most of the time I place insulae in a seperate area and domus and above in even another area. But, that is still play preference.

I have played the way you are describing and found it to be a pain. That is, too many warehouses and granaries. It can work though.

[Strix]

This happens when you delete a work place. There is another event that will cause the worker to leave but the wife and kid will stay. I usually delete these.

I'm pretty sure that if an insula or domus or even Villa or Palace loses access to something needed to evolve it from the previous house style (let's say Oil or bath, or school for domus and above), it will become deserted because it can't devolve back again to the previous shape, but maybe I'm wrong.

It hasn't happened to me for a long time, and when it did it was a deserted domus or villa. When it happens it's really disappointing.
I do not know what happens to the worker, because I never investigated.

It seems that it is the worker that evolves rather than the house. In a simple example if every worker in a small city has a house and has got meat. If you delete one hut and then place a new shack it will have the same worker in it instantly evolve to have meat again without going to the granary. Never tried  it for levels higher than this though.

[DRA182]

There is a lot of talk on this site about what does what and for how many, and I'm surprised that there wasn't an official release by the designers (firefly or fraxis - I'm not sure) on what exactly everything does.

It could also be a case of thing varying depending on either circumstance or just at random.

Maybe a shop will do for example 10,000 people one time and only 9,000 another.

[Strix]

These things never seem to be published. Sometimes power users analyse and publish their findings, such as is found for other games on Heavengames.
But for CCR there are posts mostly by tomnobles that give this data. Seek them out. It does depend though on playing style. and sometimes my own calculations are different from Tom's but not by much.

Also the only shops that depend on the number of people are butchers and fishmongers which provide rations, and this depends on ration level and which researches are done.
Other shop numbers depend on how many workers are housed. Unhoused workers don't need clothes, oil etc.

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